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	<title>Comments on: On Trials, Software and Otherwise</title>
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	<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/</link>
	<description>Derek Willis' weblog on investigative and computer-assisted reporting.</description>
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		<title>By: CaspioVote Post- Clarification &#124; Jonathan Coffman &#124; Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-117482</link>
		<dc:creator>CaspioVote Post- Clarification &#124; Jonathan Coffman &#124; Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-117482</guid>
		<description>[...] Ã‚Â http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ã‚Â http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Colleen Robledo</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-110096</link>
		<dc:creator>Colleen Robledo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-110096</guid>
		<description>As someone who&#039;s still pretty new to database development, I have to agree with Derek&#039;s observation that one of the most valuable aspects of building database applications in-house is the learning process.

I used both a trial version of Caspio, and my own custom database and interface, for my still-under-development &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.colleenrobledo.info&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ultimate Sacrifice&lt;/a&gt; database gallery.  Although Caspio allowed me to quickly publish something online, it did not allow me to really learn anything more about database programming.  Yes it&#039;s very time-consuming to build my own homegrown application (because I&#039;m still so new at it), but I am gaining such a great understanding of database and web development -- which will make future projects fly more quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who&#8217;s still pretty new to database development, I have to agree with Derek&#8217;s observation that one of the most valuable aspects of building database applications in-house is the learning process.</p>
<p>I used both a trial version of Caspio, and my own custom database and interface, for my still-under-development <a href="http://www.colleenrobledo.info" rel="nofollow">Ultimate Sacrifice</a> database gallery.  Although Caspio allowed me to quickly publish something online, it did not allow me to really learn anything more about database programming.  Yes it&#8217;s very time-consuming to build my own homegrown application (because I&#8217;m still so new at it), but I am gaining such a great understanding of database and web development &#8212; which will make future projects fly more quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-10-16 &#124; SOJo: Student of Online Journalism</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-109848</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-10-16 &#124; SOJo: Student of Online Journalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-109848</guid>
		<description>[...] The Scoop Ã‚Â» Blog Archive Ã‚Â» On Trials, Software and Otherwise (tags: database innovation journalism tools) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Scoop Ã‚Â» Blog Archive Ã‚Â» On Trials, Software and Otherwise (tags: database innovation journalism tools) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Davidson</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-107423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-107423</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear. Preaching to the choir, perhaps, but the real solution is simple: Hire developers. Or pay to turn one of your geek-minded reporters into one.

What? We can&#039;t do that in an era of diminishing resources?

Hmm. When TV got big in the &#039;60s, we hired TV critics. When business news became important in the &#039;80s, we ponied up for larger (and better trained) business staffs.

No insults intended to any past or current colleagues - but the utility of most local TV, book and movie critics is gone (unless they&#039;re named &quot;Ebert.&quot;) Travel editors? &quot;National&quot; sports-beat writers who don&#039;t cover the local team anymore? Same story, however sad it may be.

Yes, diminished resources are real - but there are still many, many jobs in our newsrooms whose original purpose has been overwhelmed by the digital revolution.

Bosses, that&#039;s where you get the FTEs to hire your coders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear. Preaching to the choir, perhaps, but the real solution is simple: Hire developers. Or pay to turn one of your geek-minded reporters into one.</p>
<p>What? We can&#8217;t do that in an era of diminishing resources?</p>
<p>Hmm. When TV got big in the &#8217;60s, we hired TV critics. When business news became important in the &#8217;80s, we ponied up for larger (and better trained) business staffs.</p>
<p>No insults intended to any past or current colleagues &#8211; but the utility of most local TV, book and movie critics is gone (unless they&#8217;re named &#8220;Ebert.&#8221;) Travel editors? &#8220;National&#8221; sports-beat writers who don&#8217;t cover the local team anymore? Same story, however sad it may be.</p>
<p>Yes, diminished resources are real &#8211; but there are still many, many jobs in our newsrooms whose original purpose has been overwhelmed by the digital revolution.</p>
<p>Bosses, that&#8217;s where you get the FTEs to hire your coders.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Gebeloff</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-106342</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Gebeloff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-106342</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty platform agnostic. I&#039;ve been doing online databases for years in ASP, but when people would ask me at CAR conferences what to use to get started, I would always tell them: Use whatever is most practical for your situation (based on how much time they had, how much skill they had, what their IT departments were willing to tolerate, etc.)

Moreover, I speak from experience of having tried Caspio.

I have nothing against Caspio. But I am strongly against outsourcing.

Just as staff produced content distinguishes your news organizations from wire content, you can do much, much, much more with online data DIY then using a template tool.

A template tool allows you to provide simple look-ups. But your users will expect more -- they&#039;ll want to rank, sort, link results to other databases, etc.  

In other words, if you know how to do it yourself, you can bring a degree of intelligence to the project that you just can&#039;t get with simple look-ups built by a template.

So to me, if online databases are worth doing -- and they are, and we&#039;re competing with non-journalism sites already in this field -- news organizations need to commit to a database platform and commit to training somebody who can build a bridge betweeen databases and all the other content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty platform agnostic. I&#8217;ve been doing online databases for years in ASP, but when people would ask me at CAR conferences what to use to get started, I would always tell them: Use whatever is most practical for your situation (based on how much time they had, how much skill they had, what their IT departments were willing to tolerate, etc.)</p>
<p>Moreover, I speak from experience of having tried Caspio.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Caspio. But I am strongly against outsourcing.</p>
<p>Just as staff produced content distinguishes your news organizations from wire content, you can do much, much, much more with online data DIY then using a template tool.</p>
<p>A template tool allows you to provide simple look-ups. But your users will expect more &#8212; they&#8217;ll want to rank, sort, link results to other databases, etc.  </p>
<p>In other words, if you know how to do it yourself, you can bring a degree of intelligence to the project that you just can&#8217;t get with simple look-ups built by a template.</p>
<p>So to me, if online databases are worth doing &#8212; and they are, and we&#8217;re competing with non-journalism sites already in this field &#8212; news organizations need to commit to a database platform and commit to training somebody who can build a bridge betweeen databases and all the other content.</p>
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		<title>By: Aron Pilhofer</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-105849</link>
		<dc:creator>Aron Pilhofer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105849</guid>
		<description>I actually think Sam is right about this... I think it depends on how you actually post your dynamic data. The Post&#039;s data isn&#039;t really dynamic. It&#039;s cached up the ying-yang, so search engines actually have something to crawl. 

For example, do a google advanced search on washingtonpost.com for &quot;Payne Memorial AME Church.&quot; You&#039;ll find the &lt;a href=&quot;http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/dates/2007/sep/14/3485/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Edwards&lt;/a&gt; event. If you do a search for &quot;wallsmith&quot; filtering just on &quot;site: nytimes.com,&quot; you will not find his entry in our Flash graphic, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20061228_3000FACES_TAB1.html
&quot;&gt;Faces of the Dead&lt;/a&gt;.

I think if you take advantage of client-side technologies (AJAX, Flash), I do think search engines have more trouble. This is the complaint I have heard from our online guys, and that might explain why Caspio sites don&#039;t rank higher in Google. That&#039;s just a guess though, because I have no idea how they do data. I will also admit right up front (or almost up front) that I am no expert in this regard, and may be 100 percent wrong.

OK, now to my real point: 

To add to what Derek said, there&#039;s a bigger downside I see to outsourcing your database-driven content (for those who have the choice): You&#039;re also outsourcing the process of discovery as well.

I remember when I learned Arc, suddenly I was thinking about data in an entirely new way. Stories occurred to me that never would have otherwise. Same deal with Perl. Once I learned to script, and then scrape the web, all kinds of projects occurred to me that I couldn&#039;t have imagined before. 

Sarah always says, &quot;Give someone a hammer, the world looks like nothing but nails.&quot; (Or something like that...) By outsourcing, you&#039;re giving Caspio the hammer. Personally? I want that hammer.

So, we can talk about whether or not you could have done  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PolitiFact&lt;/a&gt; in Caspio or not, and whether it would have cost more or less &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;money&lt;/a&gt; to the organization. But that&#039;s missing the point. The point is, without learning Python and Django, would PolitiFact even have occurred to Matt? Maybe, maybe not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually think Sam is right about this&#8230; I think it depends on how you actually post your dynamic data. The Post&#8217;s data isn&#8217;t really dynamic. It&#8217;s cached up the ying-yang, so search engines actually have something to crawl. </p>
<p>For example, do a google advanced search on washingtonpost.com for &#8220;Payne Memorial AME Church.&#8221; You&#8217;ll find the <a href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/dates/2007/sep/14/3485/" rel="nofollow">John Edwards</a> event. If you do a search for &#8220;wallsmith&#8221; filtering just on &#8220;site: nytimes.com,&#8221; you will not find his entry in our Flash graphic, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20061228_3000FACES_TAB1.html<br />
">Faces of the Dead</a>.</p>
<p>I think if you take advantage of client-side technologies (AJAX, Flash), I do think search engines have more trouble. This is the complaint I have heard from our online guys, and that might explain why Caspio sites don&#8217;t rank higher in Google. That&#8217;s just a guess though, because I have no idea how they do data. I will also admit right up front (or almost up front) that I am no expert in this regard, and may be 100 percent wrong.</p>
<p>OK, now to my real point: </p>
<p>To add to what Derek said, there&#8217;s a bigger downside I see to outsourcing your database-driven content (for those who have the choice): You&#8217;re also outsourcing the process of discovery as well.</p>
<p>I remember when I learned Arc, suddenly I was thinking about data in an entirely new way. Stories occurred to me that never would have otherwise. Same deal with Perl. Once I learned to script, and then scrape the web, all kinds of projects occurred to me that I couldn&#8217;t have imagined before. </p>
<p>Sarah always says, &#8220;Give someone a hammer, the world looks like nothing but nails.&#8221; (Or something like that&#8230;) By outsourcing, you&#8217;re giving Caspio the hammer. Personally? I want that hammer.</p>
<p>So, we can talk about whether or not you could have done  <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/" rel="nofollow">PolitiFact</a> in Caspio or not, and whether it would have cost more or less <a href="http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/" rel="nofollow">money</a> to the organization. But that&#8217;s missing the point. The point is, without learning Python and Django, would PolitiFact even have occurred to Matt? Maybe, maybe not.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-105772</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105772</guid>
		<description>Sam,

I have to disagree with you there. We use lots of dynamic data in several apps at washingtonpost.com, and Google and other search engines index them just fine. It&#039;s not the dynamic nature of data per se, it&#039;s how you handle it within a Web page that matters. I&#039;m not saying that search engines won&#039;t eventually learn how to deal with content loaded from JavaScript calls, but right now those kinds of pages don&#039;t seem to be getting indexed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>I have to disagree with you there. We use lots of dynamic data in several apps at washingtonpost.com, and Google and other search engines index them just fine. It&#8217;s not the dynamic nature of data per se, it&#8217;s how you handle it within a Web page that matters. I&#8217;m not saying that search engines won&#8217;t eventually learn how to deal with content loaded from JavaScript calls, but right now those kinds of pages don&#8217;t seem to be getting indexed.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Tulsa</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-105771</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Tulsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105771</guid>
		<description>Search engines have trouble with dynamic data and widget content data but with acelerated popularity of both, search engines have no choice but to find ways to index such content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Search engines have trouble with dynamic data and widget content data but with acelerated popularity of both, search engines have no choice but to find ways to index such content.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Kaplan-Moss</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/comment-page-1/#comment-105738</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Kaplan-Moss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105738</guid>
		<description>This is great stuff, Derek. I started to write a comment here riffing on your exploration of Caspio, but it kinda blew up into something large so I posted it over on my blog where it can have more breathing room:

http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great stuff, Derek. I started to write a comment here riffing on your exploration of Caspio, but it kinda blew up into something large so I posted it over on my blog where it can have more breathing room:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/</a></p>
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