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	<title>Comments on: On Trials, Software and Otherwise</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/</link>
	<description>Derek Willis' weblog on investigative and computer-assisted reporting.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: CaspioVote Post- Clarification &#124; Jonathan Coffman &#124; Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-117482</link>
		<dc:creator>CaspioVote Post- Clarification &#124; Jonathan Coffman &#124; Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-117482</guid>
		<description>[...] Â http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/Â Â Â  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Â http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/Â Â Â  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Colleen Robledo</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-110096</link>
		<dc:creator>Colleen Robledo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-110096</guid>
		<description>As someone who's still pretty new to database development, I have to agree with Derek's observation that one of the most valuable aspects of building database applications in-house is the learning process.

I used both a trial version of Caspio, and my own custom database and interface, for my still-under-development &lt;a href="http://www.colleenrobledo.info" rel="nofollow"&gt;Ultimate Sacrifice&lt;/a&gt; database gallery.  Although Caspio allowed me to quickly publish something online, it did not allow me to really learn anything more about database programming.  Yes it's very time-consuming to build my own homegrown application (because I'm still so new at it), but I am gaining such a great understanding of database and web development -- which will make future projects fly more quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who&#8217;s still pretty new to database development, I have to agree with Derek&#8217;s observation that one of the most valuable aspects of building database applications in-house is the learning process.</p>
<p>I used both a trial version of Caspio, and my own custom database and interface, for my still-under-development <a href="http://www.colleenrobledo.info" rel="nofollow">Ultimate Sacrifice</a> database gallery.  Although Caspio allowed me to quickly publish something online, it did not allow me to really learn anything more about database programming.  Yes it&#8217;s very time-consuming to build my own homegrown application (because I&#8217;m still so new at it), but I am gaining such a great understanding of database and web development &#8212; which will make future projects fly more quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-10-16 &#124; SOJo: Student of Online Journalism</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-109848</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-10-16 &#124; SOJo: Student of Online Journalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-109848</guid>
		<description>[...] The Scoop Â» Blog Archive Â» On Trials, Software and Otherwise (tags: database innovation journalism tools) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Scoop Â» Blog Archive Â» On Trials, Software and Otherwise (tags: database innovation journalism tools) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Davidson</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-107423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-107423</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear. Preaching to the choir, perhaps, but the real solution is simple: Hire developers. Or pay to turn one of your geek-minded reporters into one.

What? We can't do that in an era of diminishing resources?

Hmm. When TV got big in the '60s, we hired TV critics. When business news became important in the '80s, we ponied up for larger (and better trained) business staffs.

No insults intended to any past or current colleagues - but the utility of most local TV, book and movie critics is gone (unless they're named "Ebert.") Travel editors? "National" sports-beat writers who don't cover the local team anymore? Same story, however sad it may be.

Yes, diminished resources are real - but there are still many, many jobs in our newsrooms whose original purpose has been overwhelmed by the digital revolution.

Bosses, that's where you get the FTEs to hire your coders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear. Preaching to the choir, perhaps, but the real solution is simple: Hire developers. Or pay to turn one of your geek-minded reporters into one.</p>
<p>What? We can&#8217;t do that in an era of diminishing resources?</p>
<p>Hmm. When TV got big in the &#8217;60s, we hired TV critics. When business news became important in the &#8217;80s, we ponied up for larger (and better trained) business staffs.</p>
<p>No insults intended to any past or current colleagues - but the utility of most local TV, book and movie critics is gone (unless they&#8217;re named &#8220;Ebert.&#8221;) Travel editors? &#8220;National&#8221; sports-beat writers who don&#8217;t cover the local team anymore? Same story, however sad it may be.</p>
<p>Yes, diminished resources are real - but there are still many, many jobs in our newsrooms whose original purpose has been overwhelmed by the digital revolution.</p>
<p>Bosses, that&#8217;s where you get the FTEs to hire your coders.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Gebeloff</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-106342</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Gebeloff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-106342</guid>
		<description>I'm pretty platform agnostic. I've been doing online databases for years in ASP, but when people would ask me at CAR conferences what to use to get started, I would always tell them: Use whatever is most practical for your situation (based on how much time they had, how much skill they had, what their IT departments were willing to tolerate, etc.)

Moreover, I speak from experience of having tried Caspio.

I have nothing against Caspio. But I am strongly against outsourcing.

Just as staff produced content distinguishes your news organizations from wire content, you can do much, much, much more with online data DIY then using a template tool.

A template tool allows you to provide simple look-ups. But your users will expect more -- they'll want to rank, sort, link results to other databases, etc.  

In other words, if you know how to do it yourself, you can bring a degree of intelligence to the project that you just can't get with simple look-ups built by a template.

So to me, if online databases are worth doing -- and they are, and we're competing with non-journalism sites already in this field -- news organizations need to commit to a database platform and commit to training somebody who can build a bridge betweeen databases and all the other content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty platform agnostic. I&#8217;ve been doing online databases for years in ASP, but when people would ask me at CAR conferences what to use to get started, I would always tell them: Use whatever is most practical for your situation (based on how much time they had, how much skill they had, what their IT departments were willing to tolerate, etc.)</p>
<p>Moreover, I speak from experience of having tried Caspio.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Caspio. But I am strongly against outsourcing.</p>
<p>Just as staff produced content distinguishes your news organizations from wire content, you can do much, much, much more with online data DIY then using a template tool.</p>
<p>A template tool allows you to provide simple look-ups. But your users will expect more &#8212; they&#8217;ll want to rank, sort, link results to other databases, etc.  </p>
<p>In other words, if you know how to do it yourself, you can bring a degree of intelligence to the project that you just can&#8217;t get with simple look-ups built by a template.</p>
<p>So to me, if online databases are worth doing &#8212; and they are, and we&#8217;re competing with non-journalism sites already in this field &#8212; news organizations need to commit to a database platform and commit to training somebody who can build a bridge betweeen databases and all the other content.</p>
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		<title>By: Aron Pilhofer</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105849</link>
		<dc:creator>Aron Pilhofer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105849</guid>
		<description>I actually think Sam is right about this... I think it depends on how you actually post your dynamic data. The Post's data isn't really dynamic. It's cached up the ying-yang, so search engines actually have something to crawl. 

For example, do a google advanced search on washingtonpost.com for "Payne Memorial AME Church." You'll find the &lt;a href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/dates/2007/sep/14/3485/" rel="nofollow"&gt;John Edwards&lt;/a&gt; event. If you do a search for "wallsmith" filtering just on "site: nytimes.com," you will not find his entry in our Flash graphic, &lt;a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20061228_3000FACES_TAB1.html
"&gt;Faces of the Dead&lt;/a&gt;.

I think if you take advantage of client-side technologies (AJAX, Flash), I do think search engines have more trouble. This is the complaint I have heard from our online guys, and that might explain why Caspio sites don't rank higher in Google. That's just a guess though, because I have no idea how they do data. I will also admit right up front (or almost up front) that I am no expert in this regard, and may be 100 percent wrong.

OK, now to my real point: 

To add to what Derek said, there's a bigger downside I see to outsourcing your database-driven content (for those who have the choice): You're also outsourcing the process of discovery as well.

I remember when I learned Arc, suddenly I was thinking about data in an entirely new way. Stories occurred to me that never would have otherwise. Same deal with Perl. Once I learned to script, and then scrape the web, all kinds of projects occurred to me that I couldn't have imagined before. 

Sarah always says, "Give someone a hammer, the world looks like nothing but nails." (Or something like that...) By outsourcing, you're giving Caspio the hammer. Personally? I want that hammer.

So, we can talk about whether or not you could have done  &lt;a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/" rel="nofollow"&gt;PolitiFact&lt;/a&gt; in Caspio or not, and whether it would have cost more or less &lt;a href="http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/" rel="nofollow"&gt;money&lt;/a&gt; to the organization. But that's missing the point. The point is, without learning Python and Django, would PolitiFact even have occurred to Matt? Maybe, maybe not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually think Sam is right about this&#8230; I think it depends on how you actually post your dynamic data. The Post&#8217;s data isn&#8217;t really dynamic. It&#8217;s cached up the ying-yang, so search engines actually have something to crawl. </p>
<p>For example, do a google advanced search on washingtonpost.com for &#8220;Payne Memorial AME Church.&#8221; You&#8217;ll find the <a href="http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/tracker/dates/2007/sep/14/3485/" rel="nofollow">John Edwards</a> event. If you do a search for &#8220;wallsmith&#8221; filtering just on &#8220;site: nytimes.com,&#8221; you will not find his entry in our Flash graphic, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20061228_3000FACES_TAB1.html<br />
">Faces of the Dead</a>.</p>
<p>I think if you take advantage of client-side technologies (AJAX, Flash), I do think search engines have more trouble. This is the complaint I have heard from our online guys, and that might explain why Caspio sites don&#8217;t rank higher in Google. That&#8217;s just a guess though, because I have no idea how they do data. I will also admit right up front (or almost up front) that I am no expert in this regard, and may be 100 percent wrong.</p>
<p>OK, now to my real point: </p>
<p>To add to what Derek said, there&#8217;s a bigger downside I see to outsourcing your database-driven content (for those who have the choice): You&#8217;re also outsourcing the process of discovery as well.</p>
<p>I remember when I learned Arc, suddenly I was thinking about data in an entirely new way. Stories occurred to me that never would have otherwise. Same deal with Perl. Once I learned to script, and then scrape the web, all kinds of projects occurred to me that I couldn&#8217;t have imagined before. </p>
<p>Sarah always says, &#8220;Give someone a hammer, the world looks like nothing but nails.&#8221; (Or something like that&#8230;) By outsourcing, you&#8217;re giving Caspio the hammer. Personally? I want that hammer.</p>
<p>So, we can talk about whether or not you could have done  <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/" rel="nofollow">PolitiFact</a> in Caspio or not, and whether it would have cost more or less <a href="http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/" rel="nofollow">money</a> to the organization. But that&#8217;s missing the point. The point is, without learning Python and Django, would PolitiFact even have occurred to Matt? Maybe, maybe not.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105772</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105772</guid>
		<description>Sam,

I have to disagree with you there. We use lots of dynamic data in several apps at washingtonpost.com, and Google and other search engines index them just fine. It's not the dynamic nature of data per se, it's how you handle it within a Web page that matters. I'm not saying that search engines won't eventually learn how to deal with content loaded from JavaScript calls, but right now those kinds of pages don't seem to be getting indexed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>I have to disagree with you there. We use lots of dynamic data in several apps at washingtonpost.com, and Google and other search engines index them just fine. It&#8217;s not the dynamic nature of data per se, it&#8217;s how you handle it within a Web page that matters. I&#8217;m not saying that search engines won&#8217;t eventually learn how to deal with content loaded from JavaScript calls, but right now those kinds of pages don&#8217;t seem to be getting indexed.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Tulsa</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105771</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Tulsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105771</guid>
		<description>Search engines have trouble with dynamic data and widget content data but with acelerated popularity of both, search engines have no choice but to find ways to index such content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Search engines have trouble with dynamic data and widget content data but with acelerated popularity of both, search engines have no choice but to find ways to index such content.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Kaplan-Moss</title>
		<link>http://blog.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105738</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Kaplan-Moss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thescoop.org/archives/2007/09/12/on-trials-software-and-otherwise/#comment-105738</guid>
		<description>This is great stuff, Derek. I started to write a comment here riffing on your exploration of Caspio, but it kinda blew up into something large so I posted it over on my blog where it can have more breathing room:

http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great stuff, Derek. I started to write a comment here riffing on your exploration of Caspio, but it kinda blew up into something large so I posted it over on my blog where it can have more breathing room:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jacobian.org/writing/2007/sep/12/db-journalism/</a></p>
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