Trial By Caspio
December 7th, 2007 | Published in Car Tools, DIY | 14 Comments
Update: a comment by James Glover from Dec. 8 got caught in my spam filter and I just found it today. It’s posted below.
So I did it. I signed up for the Caspio trial, despite the fact that I think the Terms of Service don’t allow me to do much with it. Anyway, onward! Ok, got the login info, go to login. First error message: “Caspio Bridge requires Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 (or later).” We’re off to a great start!
Login using IE7, and it’s basically an Access-like interface, with point-and-click menus all along the way. You can embed the results in any Web page you control, or simply direct readers to the Caspio-hosted page. I can see how, for fairly standard and uncomplicated things, it might be useful. But nothing that I’ve found has refuted basic criticisms, some of which I’ve made before:
- Caspio apps are largely absent in Google results, since they are typically loaded via Javascript call. You can also load them as an iframe. Any news sites out there interested in search-engine traffic?
- Caspio can’t send XML data to Flash apps. You can pass a URL to Flash apps, which then can display the HTML inside, but at that point …
- Importing data can only be done if you have Access files, “Caspio Bridge XML”, and tab or comma-delimited text files. Got other XML? Got pipe-delimited text, such as the IRS uses for 527 data? You’ll need to “fix” it first.
- In displaying data, you can’t easily sort by a field that’s not being displayed. This can happen when everything is point and click.
- RSS or Atom feeds? Anyone? Anyone?
I’m happy to be corrected on any of these points, but I’ll need more than a response that these are “inaccurate and misleading“.
This isn’t to say that Caspio is useless. I can see it as a quick way to get data up internally in a newsroom, where features and design aren’t your biggest concern. But news executives have got to know that it isn’t the only solution, and it’s very likely not the best solution. Renting web apps may save some money and time on the front-end, but even if you decide down the road to hire an actual developer to bring those apps in-house, that person would pretty much have to rebuild each app anyway. And if you don’t ever hire a developer, you’re paying rent to Caspio for as long as that database is up on your site. The way that Caspio’s plans currently work, the most popular plan (the minimum level you need to use Caspio’s SOAP services) charges $8 per “Data Page”, or $24 per month for the account. To get 24/7 support, you need to pay at least $400 a month (the site says $600 but the trial version says $400).
What’s the real problem with all that? If someone comes along and, because of the limitations of Caspio, puts up a better app than you can using the same data, you’re going to have two choices: concede the traffic and brand, or get some developers to make a better one. Either one costs you; it’s just a matter of what you’re willing to pay.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:53 pm (#)
Not that I’ve ever used it, but its always sounded like it raises the floor, so you can start with some cool basic stuff, then it lowers the ceiling so you’re pretty much stuck.
December 8th, 2007 at 6:22 am (#)
[...] Trial By Caspio - The Scoop “So I did it. I signed up for the Caspio trial, despite the fact that I think the Terms of Service don’t allow me to do much with it. Anyway, onward! Ok, got the login info, go to login. First error message …” (tags: data caspio) addthis_url = ‘http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wmhartnett.com%2F2007%2F12%2F08%2Flinks-for-2007-12-08%2F’; addthis_title = ‘links+for+2007-12-08′; addthis_pub = ”; [...]
December 8th, 2007 at 10:06 am (#)
Hassan,
That’s a great explanation, and it fits.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:45 pm (#)
I find it interesting that you keep attacking Caspio. It’s becoming rather noticed throughout the industry that you are intimidated about the success of Caspio Bridge.
So what framework do you use and why do you think it is so superior to Caspio Bridge? How about some disclosure? Because up to this point, I believe your rants have been rather biased toward a product you admittedly had never seen or used. I suspect you’re a django wonk based on some postings to your site but I don’t want to make any assumptions and instead am asking a question, which is what journalists are supposed to do!
I’ve been using Caspio for over a year with great success and unlike any other framework, I always know I can call Caspio and get an immediate answer to my questions. Sure, that’s during their regularly scheduled operating hours but I’ll tell you firsthand, I’ve requested help at least twice afterhours and at least once on a weekend and have been amazed to get a callback from their staff. This company really bends over backwards to make sure you know how to use the product and they’re constantly pushing their free web-based training, support and product consultations.
Caspio Bridge allows our newsroom to rapidly get searchable databases online and the web services allow our programmers to do any darn thing they want with the paper’s data. That sort of debunks your argument about sending XML to Flash apps, working with other XML files, importing and exporting pipe-delimited files, RSS feeds and everything else you failed to pick up on by turning on web services and really evaluating the product!
For instance, our state provides sex offender data every morning in a fixed-width format inside a compressed Zip file. Web services allows us to log onto the state’s site, grab the file, uncompress it, process the data, back up our existing Caspio table, pump in the new data, etc., all without anyone having to touch the data on a daily basis. Using Caspio’s framework, it took me about an hour to build and test the scripts to do this!
You are correct, Caspio Bridge requires IE for development although the end user can use whatever browser they so choose. It’s our understanding from Caspio that later this month we’ll be able to also develop using FireFox. Had you bothered to contact them to do a true evaluation of their framework, I’m sure their marketing folks would have explained this to you.
Their point-and-click framework allows me to bring external objects into any application, embed HTML and JavaScript right into the wizards, and control every aspect about the formatting of the data and the overall look and feel.
And yes, the actual data is absent in Google results. I wouldn’t want my databases completely indexed for security reasons. But like any other site, I employ the same search engine strategies I do with any other content and every one of my databases can be found with a Google search. I know this to be true because my Omniture SiteCatalyst reports show exactly where the traffic is coming from and the referrer.
Lastly, your argument about cost baffles me. We did an internal analysis of what it would cost us to host our own development and production servers with failsafe backups, plus bring on a web administrator and database administrator and maybe a developer or two to put the same content online as we’re doing with Caspio. Let me tell you, Caspio is a bargain any way you look at it.
So that’s my nickel’s worth. Are you saying you’re right and the hundreds of newspapers and TV stations that use the product are wrong?
December 8th, 2007 at 1:56 pm (#)
James,
No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m not, however, a big fan of the “well, X number of companies use this, so it must be a good product” argument. A product should be evaluated on its merits, and while Caspio has some in my opinion, it has its drawbacks as well.
I’m not sure where you get that I’m intimidated by Caspio. Just as you have a right to choose whatever product you like and comment on its advantages or drawbacks, I have the same right. Dark statements about the industry noticing things are a little silly, imho, and are closer to intimidation than anything I’ve been saying.
Any careful reading of this site would leave the reader knowing that I used Django when I worked at the Post, and continue to use it personally. Now that I’m at the NY Times, I’m using Rails. So it’s not about one framework over another. It’s about features and limitations in general.
As for using Caspio’s Web Services, it is my understanding that the trial does not permit turning them on. I looked throughout the trial and could not find them, so I had no way to evaluate them. But, taking you at your word, if you programmers can do “any darn thing they want,” why have I never seen Caspio apps with even RSS feeds? I also have yet to see a Flash app that is powered by Caspio XML - if there are some, great, but Caspio’s own forums say that this isn’t possible. The proof is in the apps.
I don’t understand your reasoning about search engine indexing. You are willing to post a database online but to have that database indexed would pose a security problem? I don’t follow that. If any portion of the database contains information that you don’t want to post, you can just choose not to post it. Otherwise, I’d want search engines to index the heck out of any app I did.
On price, I’ve already said that Caspio can be a short-term bargain. My definition of cost includes the cost of not being able to do everything that I want to do.
Finally, I’m glad that Caspio works for you, and I’d love to see some of your apps. Honestly - if you think it’s the best product out there, great. I’ve tried others, and I don’t agree. Now, can we get past the “why do you hate
AmericaCaspio so much” stuff?December 8th, 2007 at 4:23 pm (#)
There’s “Caspio out of the Box” for the masses and then there is Caspio Web Services for those who want to take command of the entire framework for programmers to do “any darn thing they want.” Here is just one example of an application that you’d be hard-pressed to discover is powered by Caspio Bridge:
School Guide
The most visually interesting part is under the Federal Ratings tab once you get to a school. If you click on the “full district” link from that tab, you’ll get our colorful “No Child Left Behind” chart.
For testing purposes, you can enter “Grant High” in the Quick Search bar.
And you can request Web Services to be turned on from Caspio’s support page.
And I will agree that not a single framework is going to be the get-all for everybody. I’d probably buy your argument on Ruby except its developers consistently fail to realize that the libraries are more important than the language. Ruby is making the same mistake folks made with Python and Perl and that is the inconsistent naming conventions and that the libraries are generally 90 percent and never get completed. But hey, that’s my opinion!
December 9th, 2007 at 11:39 am (#)
James,
Yes, my dear friend and colleague may be like a dog with a chew toy on this issue, but he is anything but a shill. Whatever the “industry” is noticing beyond Derek’s reasoned arguments is purely in their imagination.
To the points, it’s really hard to argue with you, except to say the cost you aren’t saving is, frankly, is the future of our industry. You can’t outsource that, no matter how complete Caspio’s feature set becomes.
Transitioning from news organizations with websites to, well, news organization websites isn’t something that happens on the cheap. It takes an investment. Right now, Caspio looks like a shortcut because most of us still don’t get it, but it’s not. I’ll spare you a longer rant on this subject… maybe I’ll post something about it on my own largely neglected blog.
At any rate, if the web is our future as we keep saying over and over, then that applies to all of us. That means we need to become (as Derek wrote in an earlier post) OF the web… So, while the Times, St. Pete and any number of other news organizations have started to make that transition, the industry as a whole has not. That will change. It has to. Perhaps there will be time for those second- and third-movers to reverse course. Perhaps selection will take its course, and those organizations that have given lip service to the idea of transitioning to the web will simply go away.
That’s the real cost.
December 9th, 2007 at 3:47 pm (#)
James: If you’re so sure of your opinions, why not fully identify yourself and provide links to apps that use the tools you say Caspio gives you? Without either you sound like a Caspio employee.
And please please please explain to me how a search engine indexing your data is a security risk. That’s a whopper of a statement that demands explanation.
December 9th, 2007 at 4:26 pm (#)
Hi Derek,
We use Caspio for some projects at my day-job at the Denver Post, and I was involved in the use of it once on a tight-deadline job. Here’s a quick run-down of what happened and why Caspio was useful in that context.
The U.S. Census had published a list of all the towns in Colorado and each town’s population. I wanted to publish that chart and make it sortable. I put the data into Caspio — but Caspio chugged when sorting through the few hundred towns that are in Colorado.
So I took the HTML that Caspio output, added Standardista’s client-side javascript table-sorting ( http://www.workingwith.me.uk/articles/scripting/standardista_table_sorting ), did a little cleanup on the fields / HTML and published the Caspio-hacked chart here: http://extras.denverpost.com/projects/2007/census/ .
It sorts fast, the results aren’t paginated (pagination didn’t seem appropriate for this dataset), and it’s visible to the search-engines. It took about three hours to do this.
On another note, it seems that lots of news operations figure it’s not practical or feasible to hire a developer, and I think Caspio can encourage that line of thinking. That’s unfortunate.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:21 pm (#)
Hey Joe,
Thanks for that example - I can see where having Caspio handle the HTML tabling could come in handy, although there are other ways to do that as well (you could pull the data out of MySQL as XML and have a stylesheet transform it, for example).
But I think your last graf is the key, and that’s the situation newsrooms might find themselves in. Not only will it be unfortunate, but those newsrooms then might not be able to compete with other individuals or outlets with developers and better tools.
Derek
December 9th, 2007 at 10:57 pm (#)
I used Caspio in my old job at The Oklahoman. I would’ve liked to have our own apps, but the web developers were busy doing other stuff.
Unfortunately, I was only one guy. And it was my only way to get data online. Admittedly, I didn’t deploy much live, but tinkered around with it quite a bit.
You can find a sample at http://www.newsok.com/dhswaivers …
I think Caspio has good and bad things. A couple good and bad:
Good:
1) You can quickly deploy data.
2) You can demonstrate to folks that online data deployment is a good thing. Especially if they’re hard headed.
Bad:
1) By its very nature as an out-of-the-box data app, you’re somewhat limited. I’m not a web developer, so I am fairly limited in the customization I can apply to Caspio. Every minute I spend tinkering with the app is less time I have to do journalism (of course, this would also apply to the positive side, as well).
2) If you later decide to go to your own web app design, you have to decide what to do with the already-deployed Caspio pages. Do you redesign them on your side, or keep the Caspio subscription?
I don’t understand Caspio’s angry attitude toward these discussions. It’s good for all of us to be talking about how to make our products better.
December 11th, 2007 at 11:49 am (#)
For my money, Joe Murphy just nailed it:
Indeed. Not only can Caspio encourage that line of thinking, it does: Casio’s home page says that Caspio is a “platform for creating and deploying web database applications fast and without programming.”
Look, folks: the future of news delivery is digital. You can either get with the program and hire people who know how to navigate this new world, or you can wring your hands while the rest of us eat your lunch.
I’ve actually stopped being all that concerned about Caspio: each new Caspio customer is one more competitor my paper doesn’t have to worry about.
January 29th, 2008 at 2:53 pm (#)
Hi. I know I’m commenting on this blog a month after this discussion began, but I was recently trained on Caspio.
I agree with Ryan McNeill’s comments above.
My newspaper (Wilmington Star-News), as well as several other New York Times Co. papers, decided to start using Caspio to easily create databases on our sites.
I am not a programmer (I’m teaching myself some programming on the side), so Caspio will come in handy for when I want to post data the quick and easy way. (Note: I did not say it will be useful for when I want to post data the BEST way). Anyway, the training was so simple and easy for journalists with no interest in programming to grasp. I think that’s why it’s attractive to newspapers who don’t have the resources to build their own databases. HOWEVER, I’m in the business to learn, and I usually learn by practicing. How am I going to be encouraged to learn programming if I don’t practice doing it? I’m getting ready to post my first data set using Caspio, so I’ll send you a link soon. Thanks for keeping this discussion going. I had read your earlier post about Caspio with great interest.
July 6th, 2008 at 11:27 pm (#)
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